Is customer experience more important than employee experience?

Adam  00:04

I hope so I hope so, as I was thinking about our previous conversations and preparing for this one, there's a quote by mark twain that came to mind, I don't have time to write your short letter. So I wrote a long one. And I think there's also Winston Churchill quote, along the same lines, if I had more time, I would have written your shorter letter. The reason being is when you and I spoke, your ability to simplify, shows, experience shows, you know, years and years of deep insights. So before we jump into what inspires you and a topic that I'm super curious to unpack, which is, which experience is more important for chief experience officer, the customer or the employee, Stephanie, if you wouldn't mind, just highlighting your experiences. 

Stephanie S. Abbott  00:50

So I actually kind of started getting into healthcare thinking I wanted to be in healthcare when I was about 10 years old, because my dad was the CEO, CFO, chairman of the board, Mergers Acquisitions, like all these different roles, right. And I saw how dedicated he was. And I remember being like 10 years old, sitting at the living room table, and he had like, it wasn't a computer, but it was like one of those word processors. So like, you had to do a bunch of stuff. And then you'd print it and go back and you had to like, proofread it. And I was like, 10, reading these legal documents with them. And I'm like, Dad, I just want to go outside and play. But you know, he needed help. And so we made some really good memories doing that. So I ended up starting my career actually, in human resources. And I absolutely love human resources. It's one of those roles, we get to know everything about everyone, but you can't talk to anybody about it. Sometimes it's a little lonely. But I learned so much about employee relations and employee experience. And also at the time, that was when value based purchasing first came out. And so when something new gets mandated on hospitals, it either goes to nursing, or it seems to go to HR. And so h caps got dropped on my lap on my lap, and it was you can you help manage this process? And so I started reading books, a lot of Quint Studer books, right. So I started to really look at what does this what does this really mean? So I started reading books by a lot of different things around you know, patient experience and Quint, Studer had several out, you know, he is, you know, the thought leader. And so with that, I just ended up getting good at it. And I got passionate about it that my HR VP at the time was like, I think this would be a great maneuver for you. So I ended up going into patient experience. And then I did that role. I mean, I was a coordinator. And then I became a regional director. And then I became an assistant director at the system level, VP, and then I ended up becoming Chief Experience Officer. And so it's just been this incredible journey of learning. And every time I've been in a different health system leading experience, it's been a little bit different. In so all like, I've worked for three companies, and these three companies all operate very differently. But I've learned so much from what right looks like. And then where some opportunities are that we don't want to replicate. 

Adam  03:07

For sure, there always are. But what I was also curious about as you're you're not just looking at best practices in your industry. In our discussion, you talked about, you know, what's inspiring you and you mentioned Disney, and you mentioned Amazon, if you wouldn't mind, like what are those companies have to do with, you know, learnings for chief experience officer in healthcare. 

Stephanie S. Abbott  03:42

So one of the most amazing partnerships are we had in my career as I worked for this organization who hired Disney to teach us about culture. And so here you are thinking you're the subject matter expert, you know, culture, right, and you don't know culture until you really study Disney. Because you think about the Disney Experience. It's completely consistent, whether you're whatever venue, you're at whatever country you're at, right cruise boat, hotel, Disneyland Disney World, like it's all consistent. And they do that because they are very thoughtful about the culture that they have. And so what Disney did that is so well is that they built their culture on keys and everyone uses these keys for thought process and decision making from your ride operator to your CFO, and it's about the first go through safety courtesy show efficiency. So when that ride operator is really looking at you know, think about I have a five year old and we were just on the the mermaid ride, right, The Little Mermaid ride. And so the Little Mermaid ride, you're sitting you're going and here's like a gentleman coming up and you can tell he hasn't been on crutches very long. So the first value that goes that route ride operators need to mind is, my number one priority is safety, I have to get this patient or this consumer on the ride safely, regardless if it ruins the show for all the other people. And so the ride slows, right? But Disney has done a phenomenal job of when the ride slows, like they still entertain you, they give you cute little messages, right? And so then it works the same exact way for your CFO, when a maybe like a team at a machine at a ride comes up to the CFO CEO and says, Hey, we have ideas to improve this, this environment. We want to put, like, fans over here, fans over here, we want to change the line cue to do this, you know, blah, blah, blah. So they'll look at it and be like, Okay, well, let's go through our keys. Which one is Curtis like safeties, any of those safety? No, courtesy? Yes, fans are courtesy. So that gets approved first, before the efficiency piece. And what's really interesting about that is if you look at health care, we like to say that we are always courteous and compassion, and we always put the patients first. But I will tell you, the mission, like the words on the on the wall are not always the words in the hall, right. And so a lot of times I've seen efficiency be that number one. And another thing that really is awesome about Disney is that their highest executive at the park, walks the entire park, at least once a day. So they're interacting with consumers, and they're interacting with employees. So you think about what that means when the the hippo in the room, the highest paid person, right? Is now walking, taking the time to do that, what kind of message that sends. So you think about also when we talk about we know a bass practice is when our senior leadership team and our you know, middle management leaders are talking to their employees regularly checking in having, you know, quick conversations in the senior team is visible. It's hard sometimes to get our executive teams out one time a week. Right? And so it's like until we start putting this as a priority like Disney, you know, every organization wants to be top quartile? Well, you got to put the practices in place to be top quartile if you want to be, you know, have that have that amazing culture. 

Adam  07:39

Yeah, there's so much there. Stephanie. One is my what response was, to your to your comment of, you know, values on the walls are not always the values that are loved by the organization that was part of the book science of story written six years ago and published after hundreds of interviews, and you know, it's almost like that's the rule. You know, that's not the exception, most do not live the values in your soul, right, you know, as I think about the simplicity with which you just described Disney's approach, right. And it's brilliant in its impact, but common sense isn't common action. So what we need to do is create very simple rules that allow implementation that allow us to get through the noise, people are very busy, right? Yeah, of course, safety is common sense. Okay, well, when does it show up? How does it show up in your mind? Fascinating, fascinating that you bring that into the healthcare industry, and I'm not touching right now on, you know, how difficult healthcare industry is. And I've covered it on the podcast multiple times and takes us down, you know, at some point, as we compare the experiences, we need to mention it. But where I'd like what I'd like us to go is, you know, which is more important, or we often talk about organization, saying employees are the most important assets, and they're critical for the business, but then all of the attention and the resources are focused on what the customer experience. So Stephanie, which is more important, is it the customer or the employee experience? How do you think about it? 

Stephanie S. Abbott  09:10

So I would say in healthcare, I wouldn't even say that all the resources are put on consumer or patient experience. You know, I what I've seen a lot and I've talked to a lot of my peers, you know, there are some organizations that are financially performing so well, and they, you know, have a robust consumer experience program, and they're putting, you know, multi millions of dollars into this. And then there's some that there's no budget. And so it's, it's, you can't move your company to really get to where you want to on quality, safety and finance, unless you move your employee experience first, and then your consumer experience. I think, like when you talk about, you know, employees versus patients, it's almost like which one comes first? Is it the chicken or the egg and a long time ago, we were saying it's physician centered care, we are going to like this 80s 90s, right, I think it was like, Hey, let's focus on physicians only. So we put the physicians in the middle. And then we changed our entire process and everything rotated around our physicians. And then somebody came up with well, we're going to do patient centered care. And so now we put the patient in the middle, and then changed all the operations to be around patient centered. And really where it needs to get to, is focusing on the human in the middle, so the employee and the patient, ARM and ARM, and then we create processes that improve the experience and efficiency for both of them, not just one or the other. 

Adam  10:46

So not two different experiences were converging, and each one has a role in the experience, the human experience. Okay, well, if we're thinking about in terms of human experience, how do we think about metrics? How do we know we're succeeding? Because in the world where there's patient versus there is the, you know, employee, we can think about it very focused, how do we begin to merge those are new metrics is going to be created in order to support this way of thinking. 

Stephanie S. Abbott  11:15

So the first thing I want to say on that is the patient experience, we usually focus on episodes of care, right, and it's usually the hospital episode of care, or I got a lab draw, or I got an imaging test, right? That's usually where we're focusing on, we don't look at that entire longitudinal journey from when we were having like brand awareness to when they're activating with our system to when we're drawing them in, then they have their episode. And then there's that post relationship, employees have the same thing, from the time they're thinking about moving to our organization. So the time that they leave that entire longitudinal journey, needs to have a focus on creating moments for both consumer or new sub segments, patient and employee. And so when you think about metrics of how metrics to improve human experience, what that we don't measure things always that are important to the consumer, I will tell you that like what I've seen a lot is like we will focus on the time to first employment, right, which is important for us, right? Because that's the efficiency and that's ROI real quick, versus for the patient, which is compassion is that time to treat. And in my own experience, so I am a breast cancer survivor, I got my diagnosis November 12 2021. And I finished active cancer treatment on November 15 2022. So I am almost a month out. And I can tell you, from the time I got my diagnosis, to when I actually knew what my plan was what we were going to do took 46 days. So 46 days, where I didn't know if I was gonna die or not. So Thanksgiving, I was taking all the decorations down. And I'm like a huge decorate person. And I was taking all the decorations down. And I thought about writing my husband a note. And thinking about your mortality at 37 years old, and writing a note to the man that you love most in this world, hoping that he finds it because you don't know if you're gonna be here. It's a tough spot to be in. And so the way that the system was designed, created, Amplified, that suffering in me. And once I actually got the answers, right, there's that whole other phenomenon, which I'm sure we'll talk about later about how we spin as patients. It took 83 days from diagnosis to actually start treatment. And part of that was delayed. I had a three and a half week delay, because I they thought I was a candidate for a research project. And then at the last minute, they said I wasn't so you think I could have started cancer treatment much sooner. The cancer patient that has the last the best mortality, from diagnosis to end of treatment, they have to do it in 365 days. I missed that by five days. 

Adam  14:33

What a story and you've heard me you have this personal insight into the human experience and every day that you didn't know our mind doesn't naturally go to a good place and the words you just use used you said you know the system creates this emotional suffering as part of the process. So how do we how do we fix it? How do we how do we support the evolution And maybe this is a good place for us to start thinking about what is the future of people in the should haves in terms that you've created for us, which is the human experience? What does it look like? How do we begin to dream about a future state? That will, I don't know, I want to use the word fix, it's a jounrey, but drastically improve the current state. 

Stephanie S. Abbott  15:24

So there has to be it's the endless power of end, right? It can't be one or the other, we have to have a margin to have a mission. But there has to be this combining of the minds to achieve both. And so I'm actually writing a book, my book, I'm hoping will come out first, maybe second quarter, sometime next year. And basically, it's me talking about my experience going through this for this entire year wearing the hat as an executive, and wearing the hat as a patient in knowing how the processes work in healthcare, right. I've been in healthcare now for like 13 years. And then also seeing how it actually makes the patient feel. And so I have in that process, I started documenting everything that I was going through on I did videos. And so these videos are pretty raw. And having gone back through these videos watching it, it's like, I can't believe where I am a year from now. Or like a year now, right here. So, through that journey, I think I learned about 250 different things. And now I've summarized them into waste, any efficiencies, access issues, communication, issues, care, continuity, you know, so, so forth. There's like 12 different things. And I really think it's going to take our executive teams understanding both perspectives, because, you know, we hire amazing executives that are subject matter experts in their field. But they don't always get the same training. Like I don't really understand the CFO world. I am not good at math. My dad's my dad's an accountant. He's like, I don't understand why donors and accountant. I'm like, Dad, I failed that class, like twice, right? It's just it's not for me. So but it's this merging of the minds that really need to come together to truly understand to create that. And environment.

Adam  17:25

Well, congratulations on getting close to publishing a book. What's the title? 

Stephanie S. Abbott  17:30

I don't know yet. I'm still I'm still chewing on a few things.

Adam  17:34

Well, I look forward to digging into it once it becomes available. And also we're starting are planning for a conference toward the middle of next year. So the timing works out, perhaps we can help you support the release of the book, perhaps you can even join us as a speaker and share this this amazing journey that you're on. I would absolutely love that. And Stephanie, I really am intrigued by the convergence of the executive mindsets, right? You're saying to be clear, there's the mindset that's focusing on the patient or the customer world? And then there's the mindset that's focused on the employee world, correct? 

Stephanie S. Abbott  18:09

Yes. Because they're, they're not usually controlled is managed by one person. It's usually you know, HR has employee experience, and then strategy or nursing or operations has patient experience. 

Adam  18:26

Totally. And then my, I add another dimension that in both of those worlds, there's the functional, and the technical folks, right, whether you're looking at the world of the patient and the customer, there's the marketing folks that understand the content and this the story and understand the journey. And then there are the folks in technology that are supporting the data behind it. So if we think about the convergence of the two worlds, one that's external one that's internal in then more so worlds that combine the technology with the functional side, in order for the human experience to be unlocked. We are we need to create a fusion, a new way of thinking and changes in easy and we're not talking about slight change. We're talking about like a foundational groundbreaking, you know, how do we think differently about the future? So Stephanie, like what will be a step one? So for the folks that are listening to the podcast or in HR change management, l&d More and more, so we've got some technology folks that are tuning in as well.Where do we begin? 

Stephanie S. Abbott  19:39

So you can't be the subject matter expert in everything the one of the best bosses I've ever had, and I'm lucky enough to still be mentored by him. He told me when I first started working for him years ago, he made a comment and he goes, it's your job to be a mile deep and an inch wide because I rely on you, for subject matter experts to help us make strategy decisions, right. And it's his job really to be that mile, one mile wide and an inch deep, right, because he has all subject matter. He's the CEO, right. So he has all subject matter experts in all these different spaces. And so it's really coming together with those experts in partnering with one another. I will tell you here at Adventist Health, I am attached at the hip with our chief digital officer. And it has been the most amazing experience for me to really learn from her this year, I have learned so much about being able to use technology to take the things off our frontline teams plates, modernize it, so that it improves the employee experience and the patient's experience that goes to where it costs money to invest in technology. But you think of the effect that it improves the employee experience first, and then the patient experience. And where you really get the biggest bang for your buck, right is where you get the employees front and center and help them design whatever that process is. So it's not the hippo in the room highest paid person's opinion, deciding these right, because they don't know what's going on every single day. It's best for those employees to be involved, that are rethinking the design of their work. Our Chief Digital Officer, her and I work very closely together. And we also have an amazing marketing executive, the three of us are continually looking at that entire longitudinal journey. And we all own different pieces of it and collaborate together to design an amazing consumer experience.

Adam  21:57

This is gold Chief Digital Officer, you have a marketing person that's involved. And would the Chief Digital Officer represent them the technology side of things, both the prospective recommendations? And are they facilitating the technology enablement that's required to get this process started? 

Stephanie S. Abbott  22:16

Yes. So she's absolutely brilliant. So there was a point in my role this year that I was pulled to focus more on consumer operations and less on patient experience. And so that's when her and I became really attached at the hip. And so ultimately, things would get funneled to me for decisions, right. And sometimes I could make decisions. But ultimately, it's her strategy, she calls the strategy, and I would help operationalize it. And so a lot of times, I would have to go to her and say, here's the problem I'm having, I have no idea how to fix this. And she's like, well, that's technology, right? That's IT, of course, you're not going to know how to do that. And so she was able to walk me through different processes to help me understand it. So do I understand all IT? Absolutely not. But do I understand probably enough to be dangerous now in the digital world? Of course. And so I owe it to her for that experience. 

Adam  23:09

Very cool. So Stephanie, why don't we now go a little further out, as we think about the future of people in the chips now with one focus, right, the human experience were converging the patient customer, and you and I keep using those words interchangeably? Because, of course, the folks that are tuning in are not all in the healthcare industry, but converging that with the with the employee experience, and technology and data would be at its foundation. So do we imagine a world where this data is flowing into one ocean? This data is now sliced and diced to look at episodes, convergence of episodes, because you want to understand their entire use of longitude, which is their entire journey. But then here's an episode where they're coming together. It's almost like writing a script with actors. And what is the optimal roles that they play in that episode, but but dream with me, Stephanie, how would you see it in an ideal state, then we're we're abandoning constraints. For the moment, we're not going all the way AI and machine learning, but we're abandoning the modern day constraints.

Stephanie S. Abbott  24:19

You know, I really think it's gonna take a lot of people coming to the table to want to change this experience. And the longitudinal journey can be set up by different types of metrics to really measure ease, friction and compassion. But we don't do that. Well. Amazon does that incredibly well. I love Amazon. I am addicted to Amazon and I don't care that it costs a little bit more because as a full time executive, and a mom of two little children, I do not have time to go shopping. And it's so funny because my mom will be like, I have to go into the store and feel things I'm like that's just disgusting. Like, germs don't want to do it, you know? And so if you think about Amazon, they create this entire frictionless experience. There, it's completely easy to do. They know you, which is sometimes creepy, right? I'll be like, Ooh, I need to get a new sweater. And I swear, I don't say that outside, I think about it. And then all suddenly, Amazon fashion is up, right? And I'm like, Oh, I like that sweater, I think I got this sweater on Amazon, then if you have an issue, they don't argue with you. They don't make you feel bad that you have an issue. They just do the right thing. And they say, go ahead, how can I make this easy for you. And it's so convenient that you could literally go into like this little locker that's super close to my house, it's probably more convenient for me. And I just put it in there, I scan a little code, I put it in there, I'm done with that product, I get my money back in two hours. We don't do that and healthcare, to do service recovery. And our own system is not all everybody's trained on it. It's completely varied. It's inconsistent. Like it's just, we have to get where with our consumers. We create ease. We know them. And we create the most compassionate or happiest experience, whatever type of, you know, venue that you're working for. 

Adam  26:26

Roger that. Amazon has created a playbook for the easiest, most convenient experiences. And you said, we'll have to come together. So I spent a lot of time pondering on Who are we to come together? And hot, let's chat about it. ideal state who should come together to discuss this experience? I was saying the entire executive team is the Chief Digital Officer, maybe the marketing officer, that technology officer? Or how do we even think about what is the core we that should come together for these discussions? 

Stephanie S. Abbott  27:01

I think your core groups of subject matter experts to really make such a big difference is, you know, patient experience or consumer experience, digital marketing, process improvement. And then whatever, like in healthcare, we have clinical, right, so you need clinical representation, because that's usually about 50% of your workforce. And so you really need to get those minds together, because then that's what's encompassing that in title and HR, you always have to have HR HR needs to be your best friend. So when you do this, and you have them looking at the entire longitudinal journey, that's where you can make the biggest difference in of all your subject matter experts develop this amazing strategy, you then have to sell it to your executive team. 

Adam  27:50

Love it. Next question, and we're not discussing your company, per se, we're simply asking the question. So take this core group that we've just that you just described, what is a must for every one of those folks to have in their mind? Or how do we prequalify them? Are these folks that should really care about the company, or these folks that should all care about their specific longitude, or the journeys or they're in charge of? Is it that they should be courageous and think about the future, I'm looking for some kind of a qualifier or qualifiers for the audience to be able to apply against their organizations and say, Oh, I have candidates for this, or I do not, my journey is going to be considerably longer than others. 

Stephanie S. Abbott  28:35

I think, specifically, if we like talk about healthcare, and then we can kind of expand from that. We are so far behind a lot of other organizations, from a technology perspective, experience perspective, it takes us a lot longer to move. And the reason I believe that is because we have a more archaic mindset, that oh, well, that's the way we've always done it. And so in order to really be that change maker, you have to have people that are passionate about wanting to make a difference for employees and consumers and being willing to be uncomfortable with or being comfortable with being uncomfortable. 

Adam  29:22

Maybe that's it being comfortable being uncomfortable and caring for for for the convergence, then maybe then to simplify it, could we say be comfortable being uncomfortable and care about the human experience? That is the convergence of all of the experiences into one? 

Stephanie S. Abbott  29:38

Yeah, want to make a difference? Because it's not it's not just caring, right? You can care for someone, but are you passionate enough to want to innovate, step out of the box, make a difference in whatever space we're doing because our employees and our consumers deserve it. 

Adam  29:56

That's it. And that's a very high bar. Unfortunate. that, that is a very if you apply that bar across organizations, it's we're going, it's not going to be easy. But But nothing is when you're creating change, you got to find your early adapters, you know, those that are open minded and off we go, well, Stephanie, I feel like I could keep going and going deeper and deeper and deeper. But you know, one last question, and we've already begun to talk about it, as, you know, what advice would you give for those who are looking to create impact to create change inside their organizations, you've already shared a few thoughts, but maybe there's additional that you could, that you could guide them for what's next, 

Stephanie S. Abbott  30:34

I think, from what I've seen, heard felt, talked with other peoples in my roles is that consumer experience sometimes is a difficult role. You don't always see the fruits of your labor as quickly as you would like. And I was in a really difficult spot at one point. And my, my, my mentor, actually butt dialed me on accident, and he's never done that. And I never cry, like, I am not a crier, where can I remember, I ended up crying. And he's like, are you okay? And I'm like, No, I'm not, you know, and I was like, oh, no, I want to be at healthcare anymore. And, you know, I was just in this awful state. And he said to me, he goes, Stephanie, your role is incredibly hard. You can't always look at the macro level differences that you make. Because those are harder to achieve. And it takes a lot to get there. A lot of influence and a lot of resources to get there. You have to focus on the micro differences that you make every single day to help keep your cup filled. And so that would be my biggest piece of advice for others, is to look for that sparkle in the darkness, where you can say, Okay, I made a difference because of this today. Because you have to look for those moments every single day. Otherwise, you are gonna get burned out. 

Adam  32:05

This is very timely advice from me, Stephanie. Thank you. This has been a wonderful conversation. I look forward to continuing it. Appreciate the time. 

Stephanie S. Abbott  32:13

Thank you so much.